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#178869 - 07 July 10 6:03 am - America/Chicago trading labor for room and board
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
I know that you cant hire people outside of Belize to work in your business, and understand why and agree. However, is it against the law to trade work for room and board, if those doing the work are not residents of Belize?
_________________________
Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178880 - 07 July 10 8:54 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
**

Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Quote:
is it against the law


Yes, and your visit visa specifically forbids paid or unpaid work.
_________________________
Per ardua ad Belize

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#178881 - 07 July 10 8:54 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
felintuit Offline

**

Registered: 22 May 06
Posts: 1629
Loc: Hummingbird Highway
Yes it is illegal. When you come into Belize as a tourist it would be the same as entering into the states or Europe as a tourist. You are saying you are only coming in to be a tourist, so if you work you are violating your agreement.

There are visa's for working, you just need to find out which one is best for you. There are a lot of illegal workers in Belize, but if you are caught you will not be allowed back in.

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#178882 - 07 July 10 8:57 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: felintuit]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
Well, thank you guys for your input. Im actually on the other end of the question. Going to be taking over a resort on a Caye and it needs a lot of work. I wanted to offer a work program where people could come and stay for free if they would volunteer to help me get the place up and running.
_________________________
Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178883 - 07 July 10 9:01 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: felintuit]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
**

Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Quote:
There are visa's for working, you just need to find out which one is best for you.


But is not the problem here that a potential employer has to apply for a work visa, and you are not permitted to work on a visit visa until or unless the work permit has been issued.

Also, the prospect of being found out and spending a few days in Ladyville jail on the way out if you decide to be illegal may not be enchanting.
_________________________
Per ardua ad Belize

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#178904 - 07 July 10 11:18 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
sigmund Offline

*

Registered: 12 August 09
Posts: 681
Loc: corozal
Originally Posted By: shannon1111
Well, thank you guys for your input. Im actually on the other end of the question. Going to be taking over a resort on a Caye and it needs a lot of work. I wanted to offer a work program where people could come and stay for free if they would volunteer to help me get the place up and running.


Just bring your friends and family from home for the kind work program you wish to offer - or try paying cash to Belizeans in need of work for work performed. This volunteer program is also known as the chain gang in some States in the U.S. Perhaps you could speak to Belizean prison officials!

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#178909 - 07 July 10 1:31 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: sigmund]
April05 Offline

**

Registered: 07 April 10
Posts: 2458
Loc: Cayo
Shannon 1111,

Just a few links I found that may help to enlighten your understanding of labor in Belize and maybe give you a few things to think about before you begin. Good Luck !


http://www.pacificcoasttravelinfo.com/belizeimmigration.asp

http://internationalbusiness.wikia.com/wiki/Belize_Labor:_Laws_and_Regulations

http://www.wwooflatinamerica.com/

http://www.paradisehunter.com/countryinformation/belize/living-there/working
_________________________
April 05
"Life has rules. Play Fair!"

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#178914 - 07 July 10 2:17 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: April05]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
Thank you April.....
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Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178916 - 07 July 10 2:50 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
April05 Offline

**

Registered: 07 April 10
Posts: 2458
Loc: Cayo
My pleasure Shannon.
_________________________
April 05
"Life has rules. Play Fair!"

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#178938 - 07 July 10 5:56 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Clipper Offline

*

Registered: 18 October 07
Posts: 157
Loc: Corozal
Originally Posted By: shannon1111
Well, thank you guys for your input. Im actually on the other end of the question. Going to be taking over a resort on a Caye and it needs a lot of work. I wanted to offer a work program where people could come and stay for free if they would volunteer to help me get the place up and running.

Well, if you do find these people, send them my way next spring because I'll have lots of work for them when I start to build!
Instead of looking for freebies, why not hire a few locals who could use the work?

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#178941 - 07 July 10 7:10 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Clipper]
Coco_Morgan Offline

**

Registered: 18 October 07
Posts: 830
Loc: Billy White, Cayo
If all you want is common, manual labor, then local workers should be what you're looking for and they're cheap. However, don't get carried away here with what is legal and what is not. Spitting on the sidewalk is illegal in most states too. Some of the do-gooders on this forum make me sick with their obsession for legality.

I've had guests and would like to have more at my place who have get free accommodations with no questions asked or work expected. However, it's only polite to expect that a guest help out in some way by washing dishes or whatever. I enjoy meeting new people and sharing my Belize experiences with them. Belizeans are a friendly people, often going out of their way in kindness. I try to do the same.

If a friend or a relative visits me and helps me out on a plumbing project, I'm supposed to pay them? Get real. Is that so different than a stranger helping out? Mostly I'd worry about free-loaders and not about taking away "jobs" from locals.

Native Belizeans use their neighbors, friends and relatives all the time to help with construction or just helping out. It's expected and is reciprocal. I do not see why helping out someone who is a "foreigner" is any different.
_________________________
Adventure is life; Life is an adventure.
The two mix well.

Phil

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#178943 - 07 July 10 7:37 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Coco_Morgan]
Rigrat Offline

**

Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
Originally Posted By: Coco Morgan
I do not see why helping out someone who is a "foreigner" is any different.

The difference is that it is illegal to do paid or unpaid work when you are in the country on a tourist visa.

The original question was "is it against the law to trade work for room and board, if those doing the work are not residents of Belize? " And the simple answer is YES, it is illegal.(if you don't have a work permit)

Having said that, I am sure that doing the dishes whilst staying at a private house, doing other people's laundry whilst washing your own clothes, or even lending a hand to fix a leaking pipe etc. would never be classed as illegal activity if it were just part of helping out around the house. If however it was a stipulated necessity that to get a roof over your head you had to work like a skivvy for 12 hours a day, then I think the authorities, (if they ever did get around to finding out) would take a dim view. You would no longer be a tourist, but someone who had to work for room and board.
Tourists are allowed in Belize for one reason; to spend money and bring in foreign exchange. If they come here with the intent of spending almost nothing at all, then the government rightly has a problem with it even though you do not.
_________________________

Belize Wildlife Hotline--- For advice and reporting wildlife incidents
BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
Or 605 8888

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#178944 - 07 July 10 7:46 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rigrat]
LanSluder Offline

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Registered: 04 May 04
Posts: 8109
Loc: USA/Belize
I agree with Rig. Doing a few chores is one thing, but if it's a formal work relationship where the worker is obligated to a certain amount of labor in return for a payment in room and board it's going to require a work permit for the worker (which likely will be impossible to get).

You might stay under the radar for awhile, especially if you're on a remote caye, but competitors in Belize have a way of finding out about these things and reporting them, and the government recently has been cracking down on those working without a permit, going so far as to jail "upstanding" foreigners in the hotel business who did not have work permits, even though they claimed to be in the process of getting them.

--Lan Sluder

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#178945 - 07 July 10 8:29 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: LanSluder]
April05 Offline

**

Registered: 07 April 10
Posts: 2458
Loc: Cayo
Shannon, you will need a work permit to work here even if you own the place at least until you are approved for a PR position here. The law is to provide Belizeans with the first options of work and protect jobs for them. That is completely understandable.
.........................................................

I really do not think it is a difficult question. This question could be responded to in many ways. It is a logical question, especially if someone is buying a place to try and make a living.

I think it is just some of the tones felt through the writing in the responses. They are very unfriendly and very uncalled for. If we respond to people on this forum trying to visit and learn more about Belize in a unfriendly or hateful fashion, what does that tell them about us? It does not take any extra effort to reply in a polite and less aggressive fashion as opposed to an unfriendly hateful reply.

With tourism down it seems the last thing any of us should do is be hateful to outsiders.

There is no reason to threaten or belittle anyone asking a logical question or for that matter an illogical question.
_________________________
April 05
"Life has rules. Play Fair!"

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#178946 - 07 July 10 8:43 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: April05]
Chiefsipes Offline

*

Registered: 25 January 10
Posts: 1274
Loc: Mansfield, AR USA
I cry foul! I slaved my behind off in the hot sun to repay my lord for room and board. All the day, and all the night, for days I did what I thought was right. And in the end, what did I gain? Blistered hands, and lower back pain.

Phil is a stern taskmaster. Still, we did have a fairly comfortable place to doss down so it wasn't a total loss. And, he has plumbing now.
_________________________
"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
George Orwell

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#178951 - 07 July 10 9:57 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Chiefsipes]
Rigrat Offline

**

Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
There is such a thing a volunteer work permit that costs about BZ$50 I think, and the path to get them isn't too onerous.
_________________________

Belize Wildlife Hotline--- For advice and reporting wildlife incidents
BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
Or 605 8888

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#178956 - 08 July 10 2:00 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rigrat]
southbeach Offline

***

Registered: 26 October 05
Posts: 1048
Loc: 3rd rock
Yes, Rigrat, but the volunteer work permit is for people assisting a registered charity, educational institution, or NGO. A volunteer work permit is not meant to allow Coco Morgan's (or anyone else in a similar status) friends to come visit and build his house or would-be subdivision development in exchange for free rent or no pay.

I'm kind of fed up. The same people here who will complain about some kid tiefing their ipod will try to stretch the law and talk their way out of it being less of an offense to steal a job than some trinket.

In short, I agree about dishonesty. A thief is a thief, whether the thing stolen is a a laptop, an ipod or a JOB.

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#178959 - 08 July 10 2:29 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: southbeach]
Rigrat Offline

**

Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
Thanks for the clarification on the volunteer work permit. I did try unsuccessfully to find the terms and conditions.
_________________________

Belize Wildlife Hotline--- For advice and reporting wildlife incidents
BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
Or 605 8888

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#178968 - 08 July 10 4:26 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Clipper]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
Im often amazed and sad at the tone and general negativity that floats around on these boards directed at people who are just trying to educate themselves about things they are unsure of. I am planning on hiring locals, already have. I just have friends that want to come and help and in return stay for free. I didn't want to do anything illegal by allowing them to do so. I hope that how most of the responses to this is not how most people are in Belize. That would be really sad.
_________________________
Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178970 - 08 July 10 5:15 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Clipper Offline

*

Registered: 18 October 07
Posts: 157
Loc: Corozal
There is nothing negative about what I posted. What you are proposing is frowned upon by tradespeople in Canada and the US as well.
People go to the trouble to educate themselves and gain trade experience so they can earn their way and you want to import someone to do it for room and board? How nice!
As a resort operator you become part of the local business group so why not support them?
Don't be surprised when you need a tradesman in a hurry some day and the locals are 'too busy' or sting you when the bill comes.
BTW, how would you feel if the resorts you are competing with offered cut rates in exchange for even maintenance work?
Furthermore, do you really expect Belizeans to support your business after you have given away work the locals could have done?

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#178971 - 08 July 10 5:24 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Anton Offline

**

Registered: 16 April 06
Posts: 3516
Loc: Succotz
Shannon, if it wasn't for the sad cheese situation in Belize I'd offer you some with your whine.
_________________________
Anton 1st, Lord of Pigs, Ducks, Chikeens, Sheeps and Goosen in the woodsen

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#178972 - 08 July 10 5:29 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Clipper]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
Well, Clipper, I have to disagree about your tone and reply, refer to what April posted above...but anyway. Just to put your mind at ease, I will say again, I am hiring locals, I would want to, completely understand the reasoning behind that on all levels. This has to do with friends that want to come and help me. More than i am looking for "free labor", I would like my friends to come and help. For their company mainly. Leaving everything and everyone I know is a big thing. I just wanted to know if they could get in trouble for helping me. For I would not allow them to put themselves in that position. None of them are "trained" or "skilled" in a certain area to come here and help. So calm down, I will hire local people, just was hoping to get some company more than help.........but thanks for your reply. And again I will say, thanks April for your kind words. Its nice to see someone who doesn't automatically insinuate with their response that I am out to rape and pillage this country. Its quite the opposite actually.
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Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178973 - 08 July 10 5:31 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
Thanks Anton.....you guys are really something else.
_________________________
Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178977 - 08 July 10 6:29 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: April05]
2012_Level_9 Offline

**

Registered: 13 May 07
Posts: 3895
Loc: Some Place in Belize
Originally Posted By: April05
I think it is just some of the tones felt through the writing in the responses. They are very unfriendly and very uncalled for.


I didn't see any inappropriate responses. Let's stop inventing them where they don't exist, April.
_________________________
Time Has Come Today

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#178978 - 08 July 10 6:50 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Clipper Offline

*

Registered: 18 October 07
Posts: 157
Loc: Corozal
You stated you wanted help in getting a business up and running and I replied to that.
Having apprenticed in three trades I stand by my position entirely, even if it is a local fellow who does landscaping maintenace or the lady down the street who feeds her kids by cleaning windows.
Being retired, I absolutely refuse to do work for others; free or not, except MAYBE for my immmediate family and even then I would rather see them support someone who has taken the effort to educate themselves even if it is something like learning to operate a lawn mower
A lot of people here scramble to put food on the table and employing them in some meaningful way, especially as a business, is appreciated.
If you had posted about a private residence it would be a totally different matter; people everywhere do a lot of their own work and that's totally acceptable and expected, but you did not.
Also, your post did not state you were looking for visitors/company.
I have 3 friends coming to Belize to fish next winter and while we can rent or borrow a boat we are going to hire a guide and boat, just because we believe in supporting our sport and the community one of us lives in.

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#178980 - 08 July 10 7:24 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: 2012_Level_9]
Anton Offline

**

Registered: 16 April 06
Posts: 3516
Loc: Succotz
Originally Posted By: shannon1111
Thanks Anton.....you guys are really something else.


I'm happy to oblige.

Originally Posted By: 2012_Level_9
...
I didn't see any inappropriate responses. Let's stop inventing them where they don't exist, April.


Now, now my friend, you do have to admit that this whole thread was insufficiently full of nice, cheerful and friendly replies without a shade of negativism, accusatory tone and sarcasm.
_________________________
Anton 1st, Lord of Pigs, Ducks, Chikeens, Sheeps and Goosen in the woodsen

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#178985 - 08 July 10 8:15 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Anton]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
**

Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Shannon, one thing best learned quickly by strangers proposing to make their way in Belize is that USA norms very often do not apply, and clinging to such pre-suppositions can be potentially very expensive - often wholly destructive. Another is that, often contrary to expectations, the eventual cost of goods, public utilities, fuel, imported food, booze, etc., for those aspiring to alien standards, are high.

Those who persevere here see people arrive and leave in fair numbers, having learned their lessons too late and having failed as a result.

What may come across as being unhelpful and/or cynical in these forums would better be viewed as a spur to rapid learning than as innate antagonism. There are few red carpets to be rolled out.
_________________________
Per ardua ad Belize

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#178988 - 08 July 10 8:32 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
Your excellent vocabulary and prose are appreciated. However, you should lay down your preconceived notions and assumptions about all who wish to come to your country; even though I wouldn't be surprised if you were not from there to begin with. I have spent a great deal of time in Belize over the last few years, although I don't claim to know everything, hence my question which started this, but I do have a feel for what I'm in for. Step out of yourself long enough to think about, there are things going on in the world, mainly where I live in South Louisiana that would ten to negate your misconceptions, such as that I might be looking for a red carpet. I am starting a new life, and to end up my time bickering with you guys, with what just started as a simple question, not so norm I carry with for the fact that Im from the US, I will hire Belizians to do my work. You should really think about your negative vibe you cast upon people, I have read your posts all over this board. You and Belize would be in sad shape if not for Americans spending their money there.....and all that I am about to do in Belize would only help that country, not hurt it. And that holds true even in one of my friends did come and help me for a week or so.
_________________________
Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#178989 - 08 July 10 8:49 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
**

Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Quote:
you should lay down your preconceived notions and assumptions about all who wish to come to your country


Why? Not that I was commenting to anyone but yourself, but what part of the advice I gave do you consider was false in respect of 'all who wish to come'?

But now, there is a further pertinent comment. You claim to have been often in Belize. Had you never bothered to read the visas stamped in your passport?


Edited by RoaringRocks (08 July 10 8:55 am - America/Chicago)
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Per ardua ad Belize

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#178994 - 08 July 10 10:04 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
KatieValk Offline

***

Registered: 13 November 03
Posts: 3496
Loc: Belize City and Placencia
300,000 people live in this country and you are getting feedback from only a handfull. Most are recent immigrants, or long and short term visitors and they do not reflect the population at large, nor have answers to all your questions. I would contact the Dept of Labour for definitive answers to your questions.
_________________________
Belize based travel specialist
www.belize-trips.com

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#179005 - 08 July 10 11:51 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: KatieValk]
shannon1111 Offline
Member

Registered: 19 June 10
Posts: 38
Loc: Louisiana...soon to be Belize
I guess I missed the part of about having your friends come help out for a while.....

"roaringrocks", Im not going to engage in your negativity. I wish you luck and hope that you find reason some day to be more of a positive influence in life. You are obviously a very intelligent person. But, like I said, with what is going on here where I live, staying in a good mental place is hard enough, this kind of banter doesn't help. peace to you.


And thanks Katie, I will contact them, good idea.
_________________________
Its the end of the world as we know it.......

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#179008 - 08 July 10 11:58 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
**

Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Quote:
Im not going to engage in your negativity.


I'm positive that you made questionable allegations you are now running away from. Better not to have made them in the first place if you are not prepared to substantiate them.


Edited by RoaringRocks (08 July 10 12:12 pm - America/Chicago)
_________________________
Per ardua ad Belize

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#184825 - 30 September 10 8:37 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
toledoman Offline

**

Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
While I am new to living here in Belize, I have visited and volunteered here in the past. Here is what I might add to the controversy. Every legality in Belize has to be interpreted by a government official, sometimes they interpret in your favour. My last trip to Belize was with WWOOF Belize in the initial stage. With Wwoof, you can accomodate volunteers for work and provide shelter and food in exchange. It's quite legal here in Belize and there are more farms listing as they have now opened host farms to list for free to get more farms for people to come wwoof on. We are located at Dump on the southern Highway, and will be listing with wwoof as soon as we have our business plan completed. Back to volunteering and government interpretation. After deciding, that the few farms listed on wwoof at that time just werent the cultural exchange i was looking for, I freelanced it.
I ended up volunteering in Seven Mile el progresso past san antonio heading out to mountain pine ridge. They have a nice eco educational center there for school kids of belize to come visit. Anyways with a note from the village chairman, off i went to Belmopan to ask if its possible to negate the monthly tourist fee for the months I intended to volunteer with the village. 2 Trips and Voila a neat little stamp i'd never seen before and i could stay 6 months just volunteering and a little bit of teaching no fees and they gave me the option to renew as they had never heard of a poor canadian wanting to volunteer in Belize before. It was new to them and new to me but together we made it work
_________________________
"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#184922 - 02 October 10 5:26 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
Rigrat Offline

**

Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
Actually it is not legal at all to do work paid or unpaid unless your visa or work permit says you can.
People who employ others that do not have permission to work are also guilty of an offence.
_________________________

Belize Wildlife Hotline--- For advice and reporting wildlife incidents
BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
Or 605 8888

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#184961 - 02 October 10 1:42 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rigrat]
toledoman Offline

**

Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
How does WWOOF work then? Its an international organization, it has quite a few listings in Belize, and there is a "country manager" for Belize as well? When I was in Belmopan the very first time ever to renew my visa, they had heard of it. They asked me the question "why do you want to renew your visa" I told them I was wwoofing and wanted to spend more time in the country. The spanish one didn't know what wwoof was, but the big kriol guy in the back did and they ok'd my visa renewal.

So my question is this. Is it possible that maybe wwoof is allowed by the government because they understand that there arent many Belizeans who would volunteer for free getting somebody else's organic farm going? If anybody has any information regarding wwoof legalities, I'd be interested to hear them. I have not yet contacted the GOB myself but might have to if everybody keeps sayings its illegal to volunteer

P.S the border also knew about wwoof as it seems thats the reason quite a few ppl state when asked why they want into belize
_________________________
"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#184965 - 02 October 10 2:08 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
mikecampbell Offline

**

Registered: 05 June 10
Posts: 227
This sounds like an excellent program. Is there a website where we can learn more?

Some on this board are a bit negative and know it all but Belize people are not like that at all for the most part. Nay-saying is a common disease among the expat community sometimes.

We need transfer of technology in most areas and this is an excellent program for that end that costs Belize almost nothing. We encourage all kinds of educational and artistic endeavors by foreign visitors and usually try to smooth the path for them as a sign of our appreciation. Thanks for bringing this valuable program to everyones attention.

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#184969 - 02 October 10 2:53 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: mikecampbell]
Miss Kenni Offline

**

Registered: 02 July 05
Posts: 1703
Loc: Jupiter, FL & Sta. Elena, Cayo
http://www.wwooflatinamerica.com/group/wwoofbelize

PS: No farms listed in Belize, that I can find.


Edited by Miss Kenni (02 October 10 3:02 pm - America/Chicago)
Edit Reason: Add PS

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#184976 - 02 October 10 3:47 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Miss Kenni]
Clipper Offline

*

Registered: 18 October 07
Posts: 157
Loc: Corozal
Originally Posted By: Miss Kenni
http://www.wwooflatinamerica.com/group/wwoofbelize

PS: No farms listed in Belize, that I can find.


http://api.ning.com/files/Ie6JaY7X1m8DG5...lizePreview.pdf

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#184977 - 02 October 10 3:50 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Clipper]
southbeach Offline

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Registered: 26 October 05
Posts: 1048
Loc: 3rd rock
If I may, I'd like to say anyone who can volunteer at the Liberty Farm listed for Belize would be helping an organization that provides a much needed service to Belizean children in need.

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#184987 - 02 October 10 5:36 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: southbeach]
toledoman Offline

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Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
I'd like to know more about Liberty farm if thats possible. My long term goals in Belize are to help children, in many different fashions....(i always dream big) perhaps in the future we could arrive at some co-operative programs of sorts?
_________________________
"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#184988 - 02 October 10 6:08 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
toledoman Offline

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Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
Miss Kenni from your link, just look at the tabs below the wwoof latina america macaw logo, and click on preview farm lists....thats only a preview. Also for those interested in wwoof, they have opened up listing for host farms without a fee. Those wishing to Wwoof, must still pay the wwoofing fees.

This is great news for many reasons. If you check out wwoof nepal's website, they have opened the program up to all areas of need within the country. Road infrastructure, Nurse training, Orphanage work. you name it. We here in Belize could easily go this route. Volunteers to help develop this country would make it easier than doing without. It's not really work if its benefiting the country more than it benefits the volunteer.
_________________________
"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#184995 - 02 October 10 10:43 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
Rigrat Offline

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Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
At further risk of being declared negative, the law is very clear. If you advertise for volonteer labour, and the person comes into Belize on a volunter visa, then they are all perfectly legal.
If however someone knowingly employs volunteer labour performed by someone on a tourist visa then both parties are gulty of an immigration offence.
_________________________

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BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
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#184996 - 03 October 10 12:35 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
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Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Originally Posted By: toledoman
Its an international organization. . . . I have not yet contacted the GOB myself but might have to if everybody keeps sayings its illegal to volunteer.


It is far from illegal to volunteer. It is, however, illegal for a visitor to do any work at all on a visit visa, and the visa wording clearly says so. Permits to work are, however, make no mistake, freely available.

Stringent regulations govern such activities in the USA, Europe, and, indeed, many other countries worldwide. These are commonly considerably more onerous than those applying in Belize, so it should come as no surprise that more than a declared interest is necessary.

To give further background, be advised of the unpleasant information that multiple recent instances of the abuse of Belize's often relaxed laissez-faire hospitality by paedophiles and other unknowns have been well documented in Belize and these forums so perhaps the genuine many others whose interests should no doubt be welcomed, especially those expressing interests including children, may feel rebuffed at first, but be seen to do things the right way and the welcome will be there.
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#184998 - 03 October 10 1:37 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
jungle_lady Offline
Member
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Registered: 25 October 08
Posts: 28
Loc: Stann Creek
Rigrat and Roaringrocks, I say you are absolutely correct on this work permit issue.

A work permit (paid or unpaid) is requested and justified by the employer or supervising agency that requires the services of a foreign worker. When a work permit is issued it states the exact location and nature of the work to be performed. Both employer and employee are obligated to abide by the Belize Labour and Immigration laws.

Peace Corp workers, visiting doctors and nurses, volunteer educators and environmental researchers, etc., perform under volunteer work permits requested by the Belizean supervising entity and normally approved prior to the visiting worker's arrival.

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#185054 - 03 October 10 11:41 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: jungle_lady]
toledoman Offline

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Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
I understand what is being said in terms of legality of work. But if you would look into WWOOF international as a whole organization, you would see that the program isn't so much about labour, as it is about information sharing. I don't understand how an internationally recognized organization could just "forget" to inform visitors that they need a special volunteer visa in order to participate.

I feel that the concerns of the law are to protect local job markets. This of course makes perfect sense and is what most countries do for their citizens yes. But if you look at WWOOF, you will find that countries like USA, Canada, Australia, UK, Japan, all do not require a special visa for Wwoofing. This is not a work around the world scheme. Its designed to foster a worldwide interest and information exchange for Organic Farming. Most wwoofers are at host farms for a short period of around a week.

If most wwoofers thought that they had to pay extra money for a special visa to wwoof in Belize, They wouldn't. Plain and simple, when all the neighbouring organizations have no such requirements. Mexico has hundreds more listings than we do, Guatemala is newer than Belize in wwoof and they already have more farms listed than we do. Costa Rica has over a hundred as well. Most of the Wwoofers that come through Belize are on a trip of the Americas. Most start in Mexico and work their way down. If we were to enforce the volunteer visa stringently. We would miss these tourist dollars entirely.

Yes Wwoofers do spend money. They arrange their own transportation. They often stay in hostels between farms. They often visit many farms in one trip. They buy local produce. They often fall victim to trinkets and purchase those as well. Would any of you turn in a wwoofer to immigration just because they failed to get the proper visa? Of which the organization itself says nothing about?
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"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#185065 - 04 October 10 5:35 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
Rock Raiser Offline

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Registered: 31 May 08
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belmopan
The acronym Wwoof originally stood for "Working Weekends on Organic Farms". When people started volunteering to work for longer than a weekend the name was again changed to "Willing Workers on Organic Farms".
Since this was a hassle with the immigration departments of many countries it was changed again to "World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms" - although not every country has changed to this name.
Wwoof volunteers generally work for anything between a few day to a few years.

The problem is that they work. If you work for half an hour - it's still work.
_________________________
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence”
John Adams.

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#185070 - 04 October 10 6:36 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
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Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Originally Posted By: toledoman
I understand what is being said in terms of legality of work.

It seems not, because you go on to . . .
Quote:
But . . . . Would any of you turn in a wwoofer to immigration just because they failed to get the proper visa? Of which the organization itself says nothing about?


The 'reason' for 'turning in' would of course not be for the somewhat disingenuous reason you postulate. That seems a mealy-mouthed argument that the law should be ignored. It certainly should not. If you apply your reasoning to flouting any law in the USA because you don't like it you will perhaps see where it should get you.

How would you propose to deal with the paedophile who visits Belize on a visit visa in order to pretend exclusively to wwooff and goes on to molest children?


Edited by RoaringRocks (04 October 10 6:41 am - America/Chicago)
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#185071 - 04 October 10 7:12 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
Breezy Offline

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Registered: 06 November 08
Posts: 877
Loc: Ladyville
It seems he does he said he has the volunteer immigration stamp. It sounds like a great program and I hope it is successful - information sharing could be greatly utilized in this country.

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#185073 - 04 October 10 7:23 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
Anton Offline

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Registered: 16 April 06
Posts: 3516
Loc: Succotz
Do the farms participating in this program have to be certified organic by the GOB and locally owned or can just about anyone save some money on labor by getting woofers to do the work? What would stop anyone from presenting their illegal Guatemalan workers as woofers and pretend they're paid "food stipends" instead of wages?

I'm not saying that a farm would hire a local worker for every woofer they get to volunteer otherwise - but surely the concern should be there? It's fine and dandy for people from wealthy countries who have means and leisure time to travel the world, learn organic farming and work for free, but the positions they take could potentially be filled by the local people who struggle on bare minimum subsistence in order to feed their children.
_________________________
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#185074 - 04 October 10 7:23 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
Sandy_Paper Offline

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Registered: 12 January 10
Posts: 433
Loc: belize
roaringrocks, be realistic. your comment about pedophiles is purely ridiculous and of no relation to this poster's questions. why do you want to so dissuade someone wanting to do good?

if immigration chooses to allow wwoofers entrance to volunteer without fees they will and all your wailing about the laws (which in this area are constantly morphing as i see it) is a moot point. the man has a valid concern.

toledoman, perhaps wwoof can give you a realistic answer if you ask them directly. they may not have realized the omission of this detail and be happy to add it to their website.
_________________________

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#185089 - 04 October 10 8:40 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Sandy_Paper]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
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Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
You haven't read the previous messages, have you? Since when has paedophilia have nothing to do with children?

Originally Posted By: Sandy_Paper
why do you want to so dissuade someone wanting to do good?


I don't, and nothing I have posted could reasonably be inferred in that way. Do you really want to encourage would-be law-breakers or to condone such law-breaking?

Clearly what I do want is to persuade him and anyone else of like mind firstly not to advocate breaking Belize's immigration law and secondly not to break it.

Do you get the point now?


Edited by RoaringRocks (04 October 10 8:55 am - America/Chicago)
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#185093 - 04 October 10 8:58 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Sandy_Paper]
kayleon Offline

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Registered: 29 June 05
Posts: 2090
Quote:
I'd like to know more about Liberty farm if thats possible


here you go:

http://www.libertychildrenbelize.org/

and they're having a benefit sale for the holidays:

http://ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post388815

* * * *

several years ago... (5 or 6) I saw what appeared to be to be abuse of a "work at an organic farm" program.

I don't remember the program's name, only that the couple I spoke to had found the listing online to volunteer at an organic farm on the beach in Belize.

they weren't wealthy, just kids who'd previously done some organic farming, looking for ways to extend their "gap year" broaden their horizons, and travel abroad on a tight budget.

they arrived full of enthusiasm and left quite disappointed.

the lodging facility (which shall remain nameless) had advertised work at their "organic farm" in exchange for food and lodging, but the couple was fed scroungy leftovers, and bounced from room to room whenever paying customers showed up.

by the time I talked to them a week after they'd arrived, the couple was begging for a ride out of there, (which my friends provided) saying the advertisement was "All lies!"

they said they were treated like slaves, the owner and manager were intoxicated day and night, there WAS no organic farm, just a few straggling plants of unknown provenance, and that they were expected to do all sorts of unrelated work, for ten hours a day.

their complaints were quite bitter, and thus memorable.

as I said, I've no idea if this was a listing from woofer, but wanted to share the story, as a caveat.
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"Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." ~ Erica Jong

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#185096 - 04 October 10 9:11 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: kayleon]
Rock Raiser Offline

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Registered: 31 May 08
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belmopan
If you Google "wwoof horror stories" you get a few like that...
_________________________
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence”
John Adams.

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#185097 - 04 October 10 9:22 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rock Raiser]
kayleon Offline

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Registered: 29 June 05
Posts: 2090
_________________________
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#185107 - 04 October 10 1:34 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: kayleon]
Clipper Offline

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Registered: 18 October 07
Posts: 157
Loc: Corozal
I had a wwoofer (2nd yr. Italian engineering student) come to a construction site on a ranch in Canada and the owners put him to work doing a job I had set aside for a 3rd yr. Carpenter apprentice. The work was building 17 doors and jambs for a log house; experience an apprentice or even a Carpenter rarely ever sees anymore.
Needless to say, I shut the job down until the owners found other work for the wwooofer and that only took a day.
This kind of crap is similar to the Canadian gov's practice of allowing foreign workers into the country on temporary permits because "Industry can't get Canadian workers", which in reality should read "Canadian Industry doesn't want to pay the wages"!

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#185108 - 04 October 10 1:59 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Sandy_Paper]
toledoman Offline

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Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
Anton. The program was initially set up for those that cannot afford to hire on help with their transfer to organic farming. If a Belizean Farmer wishing to turn his chemical laden farm into an organic model, but has nobody to help guide them and no money to pay labourers, then Wwoof would be an invaluable tool for them. A subsistence farmer as you word it, would benefit tremendously from this program as they would have help with their own subsistence and they themselves would never have been able to hire on a worker for pay.
No the farms do not need to be approved by the GOB, this is one of the underlying problems within the organization. We rely on the wwoofers themselves to report problems and issues about bad farms or improper conditions etc to the country manager. It's a gray area that needs some mending. In other countries they have a team that investigates each farm that gets a complaint from a wwoofer. thus determining who is exploiting the program and who is using it for the intended purpose

This WWOOF program is not meant for the wealthy to save on labour....It is for the dirt poor farmer that could never afford any extra help......Do you know of any Belizeans willing to work for free? because if so....send them my way. I would much prefer to educate Belizeans than international travellers. But thus far everybody I talk to wants money. Money I cannot afford and neither can my Belizean friends. Ever notice the amount of families in fields with young children at work? Do you not think that these children might be able to go to school if they weren't kept at home to help the family survive? What if a family in this situation had a volunteer labour force to replace their children in the fields? Would that not be seen as beneficial and not endangering jobs? Or are we a nation who encourages child labour?

Sandy. I have spoken to the Wwoof country manager and he indicated that because its not a work program but an information sharing program, there is no need for any visa except the tourist visa.

RR. In the grand scheme of things. What does it matter to you? Are you somehow personally affected by this information sharing program designed to help developing farmers establish themselves?
_________________________
"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#185134 - 05 October 10 6:53 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
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Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Originally Posted By: toledoman
What does it matter to you?


Interested as many no doubt are in high-moral-plane musings about motherhood and apple pie, this topic is about trading labour for room and board. This seems far removed from promoting wwoof or any such thing. It is also far removed from :
Originally Posted By: toledoman
My long term goals in Belize are to help children, in many different fashions....


Do you consider TOS 13 does not apply to you? 13: Please stay within the topic area of the forum you are posting a message in, and within any topic that another poster may have started.

If you are now clear about the requirements of Belize law and will avoid suggestions that some overweening principles make breaking Belize laws somehow justifiable or even meritorious, then unless you need to know something else about the subject, your relevant questions have been answered in full, have they not?
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#185146 - 05 October 10 10:17 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
Breezy Offline

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Registered: 06 November 08
Posts: 877
Loc: Ladyville
Toledoman as a last resort the rocks all spout abiding by the forum rules although on a regular basis they themselves break it so don't be discouraged.

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#185148 - 05 October 10 10:20 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Breezy]
Rock Raiser Offline

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Registered: 31 May 08
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belmopan
Do they now?
_________________________
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence”
John Adams.

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#185164 - 05 October 10 1:36 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rock Raiser]
toledoman Offline

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Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
Breezy, I have also noticed this trend. Have been lurking for well over a year now and is a commonality amongst them for sure. I thank those that provided keen insight and interest. Thank you to the naysayers for enlightening me on what to avoid.
Topic ended?
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"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#185170 - 05 October 10 3:25 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
winjama Offline

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Registered: 21 May 07
Posts: 601
Loc: Corozal Town, Belize
One can only hope it's at an end.
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http://winjama.blogspot.com
Ubi Est Voluntas, Ibi Est Via

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#185264 - 07 October 10 6:44 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
RoaringRocks Offline
roaringrocks
**

Registered: 26 June 07
Posts: 3136
Loc: Near Belmopan / or Wales
Originally Posted By: toledoman
Thank you . . . . for enlightening me on what to avoid.


Summarising, then, the things include:

Avoid breaking Belize laws and:-
Avoid breaking the TOS of these forums.

If you have learned these, good luck!


Edited by RoaringRocks (07 October 10 6:44 am - America/Chicago)
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#185274 - 07 October 10 8:25 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
Rigrat Offline

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Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
Originally Posted By: toledoman

Sandy. I have spoken to the Wwoof country manager and he indicated that because its not a work program but an information sharing program, there is no need for any visa except the tourist visa.


Interesting. If it is an information sharing program, then surely that would require a business visa?
_________________________

Belize Wildlife Hotline--- For advice and reporting wildlife incidents
BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
Or 605 8888

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#185278 - 07 October 10 10:10 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: RoaringRocks]
placencia423 Offline

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Registered: 27 July 07
Posts: 193
Loc: USA
One wonders if TOS #1 is a physical age or a mental age?

I've now posted the TOS on the wall next to my computer so I can keep up with the experts on these matters. With the 10 or so "regualar" posters on this forum, I figured it was important to be on top of things.

Again, we give thanks to have such an esteemed "hall monitor" and expert witness to all things TOS in our midst.

Per ardua ad nauseam.

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#185312 - 07 October 10 6:47 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: placencia423]
toledoman Offline

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Registered: 30 September 10
Posts: 102
Loc: Dump, Toledo
just out of curiosity....being that the law is so utterly important to some folks here.....what is the law regarding the sale of copyrighted media? Have any of these supreme members of the law abiding group, ever purchased one of these copyrighted media types? How does one live 100% within the law, when some very common things are outside of it? Should we enforce these international copyright laws? Would this make our country better for all? What about those making a living selling these copyrighted media types? Should we turn all of them in? I would think that a large portion of this countries purveyors of computer goods might no longer exist.

Yes I'm aware that somebody very soon will inform me that this is not within the TOS guidlines.
_________________________
"It is no measure of good health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#185326 - 07 October 10 11:10 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
southbeach Offline

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Registered: 26 October 05
Posts: 1048
Loc: 3rd rock
So, Toledoman, you have no response to the very serious quesstions I posed to you in private messages? You sound like my children 25 or 30 years ago, "But everybody's doing it."

fyi, being the daugher and mother of performance musicions and composers, no, I do not buy bootleg, illegal, copyrighted material. It cost me more to get the material I want, but my conscience is clear, the quality of product is better, and my butt is legally covered.

I still say we need more people observing and complying with our laws than begging how their transgressions are no worse than the offenses they imagine or see others comit.

If I am right about wwoofers being illegal undocumented workers, with no background check or orientation sessions before integrating into our rural communities, then you and others who participate may well be welcoming into our communities persons who are running from prosecution in other Soverign jurisdictions.

Undocumented Ag. workers may, for all I know, be contributing to trafficking in humans. All children abducted and transorted out of any country are not always destined for sexual abuse. Often they are sold as household and agricultural slaves.

We all need to think beyond what we want and look at the long-term potential costs of getting it and how it is obtained.

The law will be utterly important to youwhen and if you should have an illegal act comitted against you.

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#185330 - 08 October 10 2:39 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: southbeach]
Rigrat Offline

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Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
Funny you mention this Toledoman, because Belize is not a signatory to the WIPO Copyright Treaty, nor UCC Paris. So on a very basic level all those purveyors of illegal software, may not be breaking the laws of Belize.

This is in no way an excuse for people who wish to steal intellectual and original thought and work, but you also have to realise that in Belize it is almost impossible to buy a non pirated copy of a DVD much in the same way as large corporations such as Microsoft refuse to sell their software to anyone in Belize who has a Belizean credit card. Many times when I have tried to buy something that is legal from the USA, Belize is either not listed as a country, or more often they restrict their sales to USA and Canada.

However this is also irrelevant to your intimation that it is perhaps OK to break a country's law if a lot of other people do it. Ask many Texans how they feel about Mexicans flooding over the border. Must be OK because thousands do it? Must be OK because you can use them as cheap labour?

But the real reason that I will continue to try communicate the laws of Belize to people who ask on this forum, is because there are many, just like you, who will encourage people to come to Belize and do something that will end up with a very unpleasant stay in Hattieville just because others reckoned that it should be OK. There are many tourists who get busted for dope here in Belize and end up in jail. A lot of tourists come here and quite openly smoke dope. Then they go home and tell everyone how great it is in Belize because I smoked a joint right there in the bar, or snorted a line of coke in the nightclub and nobody did anything about it.
What they don't see is all the misery enacted on the streets by drug dealers fighting their turf war just so el touristo can get his jollies. What they don't see is the poor unworldly teenagers that come to Belize and end up in Hattieville with Big Mo the rectum stretcher.
Is the law on speed limits ignored? You bet it is. So why have the law there in the first place? Because there has to be a penalty for the occasional asshole who drives too fast and causes the accident that mows down granny and her grankids as they walk to school. That line in the sand is there to give guidance on acceptable behaviour. If you break the law that is up to you, just don't squeal when someone calls you on it.
And please don't come on here and say that breaking drug or speeding laws is more important than breaking immigration law. Sure the penalties and effects for the drugs or speed may be more, but laws are nearly always passed to prevent someone else's misery. If immigration law becomes universally disregarded as you seem to want it to be, then I can assure you that someone, somewhere, will have their life ruined because of it.

And then we get onto the topic of actual WWOOFers. I would hope that some of the other members of the forum will chime in here and back me up on this. I have known of several WWOOFers that have come through Belize who would be unable to save their lives even if they could by passing on one single coherent thought on organic farming. The majority of them are lazy con artists who say that they will work in return for food and lodging. There are members of this forum, who I personally know, who have had things stolen, their hospitality abused, and have ended up with nothing but misery to show for it. There are zero checks on any potential WWOOFers credentials by the organisation, the majority just seem to be freeloaders. I am sure there are some good ones out there somewhere, it is just that they don't seem to be prevalent in Belize.
_________________________

Belize Wildlife Hotline--- For advice and reporting wildlife incidents
BTL: 0800 822 8888 --- SMART: 822 8888
Or 605 8888

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#185331 - 08 October 10 2:39 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: toledoman]
Rock Raiser Offline

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Registered: 31 May 08
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belmopan
Originally Posted By: toledoman
just out of curiosity....being that the law is so utterly important to some folks here

What? Isn't the law important to you?
Quote:
what is the law regarding the sale of copyrighted media?

It's illegal
Quote:
Have any of these supreme members of the law abiding group, ever purchased one of these copyrighted media types?

Whether anyone else is or isn't breaking the law is irrelevant. If you want to break the law - you are effectively on your own - even if there are others doing it too.
Quote:
How does one live 100% within the law, when some very common things are outside of it?

First, learn the law. Secondly, make a personal decision whether to follow it. That's your choice. Just because something illegal is available does not mean it is unavoidable.
Quote:
Should we enforce these international copyright laws? Would this make our country better for all?

That is a matter for the police, mainly. But, yes, I think it does make the country better when you put an end to the things that those who believe that the law should not apply to them, or are simply willing to break it, are doing.
Quote:
What about those making a living selling these copyrighted media types? Should we turn all of them in?
If they are making money selling illegal goods illegally, then they are criminals - no matter how nice someone may find buying stolen goods for a cheap price.
Quote:
I would think that a large portion of this countries purveyors of computer goods might no longer exist.

So - you are saying that enforcing the law might get rid of criminals - and this is not a good thing?
Quote:
Yes I'm aware that somebody very soon will inform me that this is not within the TOS guidlines.

If you thought it was outside of the TOS guidelines - why did you post it? I don't think it was, though...
_________________________
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence”
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#185332 - 08 October 10 3:18 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rigrat]
Rock Raiser Offline

**

Registered: 31 May 08
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belmopan
Originally Posted By: Rigrat
Funny you mention this Toledoman, because Belize is not a signatory to the WIPO Copyright Treaty, nor UCC Paris. So on a very basic level all those purveyors of illegal software, may not be breaking the laws of Belize.

They would be breaking Belize law (Copyright Act) and there is provision within the Belize Copyright Act to charge them with the offence in Belize.
_________________________
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence”
John Adams.

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#185337 - 08 October 10 5:54 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rock Raiser]
LanSluder Offline

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Registered: 04 May 04
Posts: 8109
Loc: USA/Belize
Rig, I think you're wrong in your facts. According to several different sources on the web (including Wikipedia!) Belize is indeed a signatory to the Berne Convention, Universal Copyright Convention Geneva and TRIPS. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements

Not all countries are signatories to all the various copyright treaties, but certainly Belize is a signatory to enough that strong copyright provisions exist in Belize. Of course, just signing these conventions don't necessarily mean they are enforced. China, for example, has signed all the multilateral treaties but is known for not being a country that protects international copyright.

--Lan Sluder

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#185349 - 08 October 10 7:05 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: LanSluder]
Breezy Offline

**

Registered: 06 November 08
Posts: 877
Loc: Ladyville
How else can one say over the top sheesh pretty soon you will telling all that growing a garden and picking vegetables in your own garden is illegal if you don't have a work permit but only QRP. Chill

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#185355 - 08 October 10 8:15 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: LanSluder]
Rigrat Offline

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Registered: 04 October 08
Posts: 2909
Loc: Belmopan
Originally Posted By: LanSluder
Rig, I think you're wrong in your facts.


No Lan, I am not wrong in my facts. I didn't mention Trips Berne, nor UCC Geneva. What I did mention was the agreement that was signed specifically to address software theft which Belize is not a signatory to, as the very web page that pointed everyone to says quite clearly.
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#185360 - 08 October 10 11:31 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Rigrat]
BlmopnGringo Offline

***

Registered: 08 May 09
Posts: 1439
Loc: NJ & Belmopan
This is a general comment, not a response to a specific post

To go back to the issue of trading labor for room and board, you might find the following article to be of interest. Apparently at least one agent of the U.S. INS takes the position that WWOOFing in the United States requires a work visa, and that someone who comes accross the border to participate in a WWOOF program without a work visa is subject to deportation:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/05/12/gatineau-vroemen-border-windsor.html

I also attach a blog from an U.S. citizen who was deported from the U.K. for entering the country in order to WWOOF without a work visa:

http://www.lowimpact.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4098&sid=1c66bc02bf129b2bb4ec331c5e352e3a

Toledoman tells the story of when he went to Belmopan to renew his visa, and that he was given an extension by the big kriol guy after he told him he was here for WWOOF. I have no doubt that the story is accurate. It is also very possible, however, that the next time he tries to renew, another big kriol guy questions whether he is illegally working on a tourist visa.

I don't know the GOB's position on WWOOF, but I suspect that it may not have one, and that interpretation is left to individual immigration officers.

What I do know, however, is that I would not want to be detained for any violation of law in Belize and have to bide my time in Hattieville until the issue is worked out.

My suggestion to any would-be WWOOFers, or anyone else who wants to volunteer their time in return for room and board, is to contact the GOB in advance, in writing, and tell them your plans. If they tell you you don't need a work visa, make sure they confirm that in writing and make sure you carry a copy of that response with you.
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Work is the curse of the drinking class. Oscar Wilde

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#185363 - 08 October 10 11:53 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: BlmopnGringo]
Anton Offline

**

Registered: 16 April 06
Posts: 3516
Loc: Succotz
Originally Posted By: BlmopnGringo
...
Toledoman tells the story of when he went to Belmopan to renew his visa, and that he was given an extension by the big kriol guy after he told him he was here for WWOOF. I have no doubt that the story is accurate. It is also very possible, however, that the next time he tries to renew, another big kriol guy questions whether he is illegally working on a tourist visa.
...


I personally saw a guy in Belmopan getting his visa extended for 50 BZD even though he should have been paying 100 BZD at that point. I also didn't see the immigration guy who did this favor some visits later. Apparently he didn't work there any more and I could only guess why that was.
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#185372 - 08 October 10 2:07 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Anton]
BlmopnGringo Offline

***

Registered: 08 May 09
Posts: 1439
Loc: NJ & Belmopan
Perhaps they promoted him to work at the airport:

http://www.7newsbelize.com/sstory.php?nid=17950
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Work is the curse of the drinking class. Oscar Wilde

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#198122 - 07 June 11 6:33 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
ETOLerInBZ Offline
Member

Registered: 05 June 11
Posts: 34
Loc: Stann Creek, Belize
You say you "understand and agree" with not being able to hire foreigners but Im not sure you do fully understand. The purpose of getting a work visa for foreigners is to protect the job opportunities available to Belizeans. If you have foreigners coming in (paid or work exchange) you are denying a Belizean that job. Better to collect revenue from room rentals and pay a Belizean to do the work.

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#210939 - 11 February 12 2:40 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Maureene Offline
Member

Registered: 02 February 12
Posts: 25
Loc: Shoreline, WA
I am moving to Belize in June and would like to find work either for pay or as trade for a place to stay. I know that I will need to obtain a work visa. If you know of anyone that will be looking to hire around June please let me know!

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#210943 - 11 February 12 3:54 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
CTscuba Offline

**

Registered: 19 November 08
Posts: 1197
Skills?
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#210945 - 11 February 12 3:57 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Maureene Offline
Member

Registered: 02 February 12
Posts: 25
Loc: Shoreline, WA
I have been in the service industry for over 12 years and I have experience with event coordinating. I have a BA in media and communications.

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#210967 - 11 February 12 8:30 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
CTscuba Offline

**

Registered: 19 November 08
Posts: 1197
That probably won't get you far but start with the work permit. Good luck.
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Belize Neighborhood Watch: www.bznwc.org

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#211015 - 12 February 12 6:39 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: April05]
Maureene Offline
Member

Registered: 02 February 12
Posts: 25
Loc: Shoreline, WA
April,
Thank you very much for your post I am happy to hear that I am not the only one to notice the angry responses to many of the posts on this site.

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#211019 - 12 February 12 8:16 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: Maureene]
felintuit Offline

**

Registered: 22 May 06
Posts: 1629
Loc: Hummingbird Highway
Work visa costs will be determined on what you are doing. What you could do is try to figure out possible areas that would benefit from your skills and start sending resumes out. Just be aware salaries here will pale in comparison to most other countries.

But, starting and getting a reputation of quality here goes a long way. Just will take time.

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#211314 - 17 February 12 6:35 am - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
ETOLerInBZ Offline
Member

Registered: 05 June 11
Posts: 34
Loc: Stann Creek, Belize
Maureene you could probably get a self-employed work permit as a consultant in your area of expertise and contract out your services but if you want to get hired by someone as an employee you have to be looking for a specific job in which you are more qualified than a Belizean. Good Luck.

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#211442 - 19 February 12 10:19 pm - America/Chicago Re: trading labor for room and board [Re: shannon1111]
Maureene Offline
Member

Registered: 02 February 12
Posts: 25
Loc: Shoreline, WA
Thank you!

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